As parts of its interview series, Ali Payam of Afghanistan Watch interviewed Mr. Sebghatullah Sanjar the Head of Policy and Transitional Justice Focal Point of the President’s Office. As the transcript below shows, a number of challenging questions including on the failure of the Afghan state to implement the process were discussed during this interview.

Q. Let’s start with transitional justice. What is your definition of transitional justice?

A. There have been wars and internal conflicts all over the world. However Afghanistan is a country with a history of milestones and prides, but during last thirty years the country has gone throw many ups and downs and have had some achievements. During jihad and resistance the world was feeling proud of this country.

Besides all these, human rights were also violated. There are several individuals and groups that committed the crimes. When law is defined and the government is established people wish and demand that their rights taken into account and the crimes committed during the war are addressed by the state.

The government of Afghanistan was established on the basis of Bonn Conference. Before the parliamentarian elections the minister’s council according to constitution had the right to approve laws. Fortunately the program of transitional justice prepared by the Independent Human Rights Commission was proposed to minister’s council at that time and was approved by them and there were timelines in this action plan. Also there were timetable that guided how to move step by step towards a government that finds credibility amongst people.

It is possible when the people of Afghanistan see the demands of victims of war and their families are being addressed. In the process called transitional justice there items included and we tried to move slowly and increase the credibility of government for people. In this program there are emphasis on how to build the atmosphere of trust between government and people and mostly emphasizes on the issues like reconciliation and peaceful atmosphere. It is meant to help people deal with their painful past and achieve sustainable peace and national reconciliation.

Q. The process of transitional justice should have been implemented according to its timeline but it was not. What is your opinion in this regard? I need your answer as an official of the government.

A. There were much optimism regarding a stable peace and security with the establishment of interim administration in Afghanistan. There was no attention paid to the security forces by the government of Afghanistan on the bases of Bonn conference. There was no foundation laid for police, army and security agencies relative to the history and geographical position of Afghanistan, as Afghanistan is the heart of Asia.

At the time of Bonn conference it was assumed that Afghanistan will be prosperous and progressive. But it did not happen. We were optimist about security and national peace and reconciliation. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) and the minister’s council also seemed optimistic that we could act according to the timetables drawn in Bonn conference.

In reality those who did not want a real peace and reconciliation and a democratic state in Afghanistan disrupted the process in many ways. The people of Afghanistan feel serious security threats from terrorist networks and live with fear.

Therefore the implementation of transitional justice that was due to put into effect until 2009 was not implemented. I responsibly say unless there is a strong executive force and government with a strong legislative force in Afghanistan and the people are encouraged towards national solidarity and reconciliation we can never be able to implement the action plan of government.

It does not mean that the government of Afghanistan did not pay attention to this issue or it did not want to make it possible. On the contrary the president of Afghanistan possesses such a character that always favors reconciliation, understanding and negotiation for the people of Afghanistan which is the only way to reach the goal of transitional justice. The goal is to make Afghanistan a peaceful and better place to live in for all Afghans and to enable the people of this country to live together without fear and to improve the social, political, education, trade, judicial system, police and other sectors. All those who have committed crimes should be brought into justice.

Q. The program of transitional justice includes rehabilitation, compensation and memorials for the victims. If the trial of human rights violators is hard in current situation the reconstruction or compensation of damages were not hard. Why it did not happen?

A. In principle, we emphasize more on reconstruction as we also stress on the national solidarity and amnesty. Our goal is reconstruction. The people of Afghanistan are the symbol of forgiveness in the world as they possess a strong history with great culture and they are Muslims so this all should happen in the framework of Shria (Islamic Law). We wanted to draw the support of tribal elders and fortunately the response was positive.

With regards to your points about rehabilitation and compensation of victims we have fortunately established a committee with the representatives from ministry of justice, ministry of culture and information, ministry of interior, ministry of women affairs and ministry of education. The personalities from high authorities of ministries like deputies are the members of this committee. We have taken measures in this regard.

Regarding minarets the ministries are tasked, in particular the ministry of information and culture. The works are going slowly but gradually and not very fast and quick. I agree with you that the measures taken have been small but I assure the people of Afghanistan that our work is slow but it is gradual and steady and we continue it.

Q. What is the relationship between the action plan of government about transitional justice and the Commission for strengthening peace?

A. This plan basically emphasizes on peace. As all the people of Afghanistan, political leaders, tribal elders, intellectuals favor peace so the program is also about the real peace - a permanent peace with a lasting reconciliation. Therefore the Peace Commission is trying to bring those Afghans who had problems in the past under different circumstances on the negotiation table and today is the time they leave all the animosity and get together. I believe the commission has helped the program of transitional justice. The goal of the program is to show justice can be implemented in Afghanistan and the transitional justice can be implemented when there is justice.

Q. Many of the intellectuals and national personalities that I have interviewed believe there is no substantial difference between the current Peace Commission and the national reconciliation policy of the Peoples Democratic Party of Afghanistan. What is your opinion in this regard?

A. The intellectuals have the right to say so. Fortunately the people of Afghanistan are working with the government that is established on the basis of public votes. The government of Afghanistan has many strategies and plans, in particular, the freedom of speech that people even criticize their president, pressurize their leaders. In the meantime former members of the governments of the national Democratic Party, the mujahedin and current administration all naturally favor reconciliation and peace.

Mujaddadi who is leading the Peace Commission emphasizes on peace. Peace and reconciliation are beautiful words. These terms are not heritage of the communists or People’s Democratic Party (PDPA) or the Soviet and the Westerners. The difference between Commission for Strengthening Peace and the national reconciliation policy of the PDPA is that the Commission is led by Hazrat Mujadadi who is a prominent person and people particularly the anti-government forces have faith on him. Every month the anti-government armed forces join the commission and continue their peaceful lives.

Q. If we return to transitional justice program, as you pointed the action plan of transitional justice has expired according to law. In the meantime, what are the programs of government to implement transitional justice in the country?

A. Transitional justice is a strategic program and we accept it as an important program. In my opinion it has no end and we will continue our work.

Q. What is your opinion about the national amnesty considering transitional justice? Is national amnesty possible keeping in view private rights of the people?

A. One is general amnesty declared by governments and the rulers. At the time of PDPA and mujahedin they declared general amnesties. However we believe that unless national solidarity and reconciliation is developed amongst the people in reality and people themselves forgive each other we will not see a stable peace and security in Afghanistan.

Fortunately, the action plan of government of Islamic Republic of Afghanistan which is about the transitional justice, mostly emphasizes on national reconciliation.

Unless the civil society, political parties and human rights activists do not start the process of public awareness from family level in Afghanistan, work with our neighbors and in city and districts work with people in different ways to encourage them towards national solidarity and make them aware of not being puppets of foreigners anymore and do not eliminate each other we may not reach our objectives.

Q. What is the real meaning of your national reconciliation in particular? As the victims are the voiceless classes of the society that can have no direct demand from the government and naturally are weak?

A. I agree with you that the victims are voiceless classes of the society and it is clear from the name of victims. In fact they do not have the courage to raise their voices. I emphasize on this point that this program takes time and it is a long-term strategy. We have accepted it as a strategy and we can never forget it or hurry in its implementation process. The program is a slow but steady process and it can be implemented when the people of Afghanistan acquire the trust on the political system of Afghanistan and on the attorney general, judges and police of Afghanistan and they find the courage to go to court and raise their voices to demand their rights and the victims are satisfied that the system they voted for defends their rights.

Q. The problem seems to be lies here that some of the violators of human rights are part of current government and they are powerful figures. What is your response?

A. I agree with you and it is really painful. It hurts those families who are the victims as they see those who killed their spouse, children and parents still occupy high authorities in the government. I emphasize on this point that Afghanistan has suffered for thirty years and we have been confronting each other during this long period where there might not be a single family left who did not loose one. It really is an undeniable fact and no one can neglect it.

What I emphasize most is that how can we prevent from violation of human rights in future? What measures can we take to prevent the loss of civilians? No more sufferings for people as they have suffered a lot. What is on the top priority for us is the satisfaction of Afghans that they believe, those who committed crimes will not be forgiven. However it is a hard task to make them believe so but I insist that late or soon they should be brought to justice if there is any evidence or proof. If the evidence proves his guilt he will surely be brought to the court. The second important point for us is that no one should be victim any more.

Q. To say that human beings should not be victims is a view for the future. We wish to look back. According to a common saying, the fire under the bushes should not burst into flames. What is your view?

A. Afghanistan is the country that has passed through bloody fights. Other countries also experienced bitter pasts, their rights were violated, homes were burnt but we must know what methods they used to stop all these. What for example we can learn from the past history of Afghanistan? The important point is this that we take measures considering the culture and tradition of our people and prevent initiation of any other conflicts. The people of Afghanistan have endured all the pains and miseries with great patience and tolerance. We do not have any other solution for the people except this that the people decide their destiny themselves.

Q. For the satisfaction of victims the government should have done some symbolic things. What is your opinion?

A. Every year the government of Afghanistan remembers the day and ensures the people of implementing this program however small and slow the programs are, but we are still committed to continue. The steps we have taken now, we are sure to take them in the future. I believe people can understand us. We are part of the people and the people who are working in this regard are also the victims.

I, speaking on behalf of office of president, am a victim and have suffered a lot during war, if I talk of my family. If it be that I use my authorities and get revenge of my family sufferings and kill those who carried out the atrocities in La’al Sarjangal, Jaji Mangal, Badakhshan, Nuristan and every other part of the country, it will be another injustice.

Q. Some of the authorities believe that apology is one of the ways to implement transitional justice. Can the government not create the atmosphere for the perpetrators to apologize?

A. See, what is government? You are the government; I am the government and all those who were part of the PDPA, mujahedin factions, Taliban and those who are now MPs, including those who are ministers, senators, Attorney generals, judges and police. They are the same people. I do not reject your opinion but I am very optimistic too that the government of Afghanistan takes the responsibility to implement the process from any means so that Afghanistan finds its beauty for the people of Afghanistan and we must try not to be the victims any more.

Q. Our all-out effort is to bring peace and stability in the country. Can you define peace?

A. Peace means that we should not react against each other in hostile ways. We must tolerate and respect each other. We must give the right of each other and respect the right of each other and forgive one another.

Q. What is forgiveness with respect to restitution?

A. For example you kill my father and if I also kill your father, this drama will continue for generations in Afghanistan and we will never observe peace. Security is impossible without peace. Unless we have peace and national reconciliation we will never have justice implemented.

Q. As the Focal Point of transitional justice at the President’s office what is your opinion about the Amnesty Charter of parliament?

A. The National Amnesty Charter that is approved by the members of parliament is accepted as law. I believe it will help bring peace in the country.